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The Animals Around Us: Amalia Ulman Visits Isabella Rossellini
Isabella Rosselini on her farm In the first of a series on filmmakers and their relationship to the animal world, artist, director, writer and actress Amalia
Ulman visits with actress, director (of the short film series Green Porno, among others), model and animal behaviorist Isabella Rossellini at her regenerative farm, Mama Farm. Rossellini can currently be seen on screen in Edward Berger’s Conclave playing Vatican nun Sister Agnes, while El Planeta director Ulman’s newest film is Magic Farm, premiering at the 2025 Sundance Film Festival. Photographs by Amalia Ulman.
On October 2, I visited Isabella Rossellini’s farm with Gabriella. We took the train from Penn Station to Merrick, Long Island, where my friend Moises, an extraordinary cat whisperer, picked us up in his car. In the Merrick Station lobby, two plaques commemorated a famous train dog named Roxey:
In 1901, a lonesome dog named Roxey had lost its owner while on a train to Roslyn. Roxey quickly began to explore his new surroundings and soon began riding trains all over Long Island. Roxey became so well known that he got to ride with President Teddy Roosevelt in his private train car while en route to his summer home.
After receiving this blessing from Roxey the dog, we drove to Mama Farm—Isabella’s “Garden of Eve.”
Rossellini: You’re a filmmaker, right?
Ulman: Yes, I make films.
Rossellini: But you also do interviews?
Ulman: This is the first one. I’ve been interviewed many times, but I haven’t interviewed others. This is going to be the first in a long series on animals and filmmaking. But first things first, let’s talk about your latest film, Conclave. I really liked it! As a Roman Catholic and as a Latin American, I was deeply touched by it.
Rossellini: Me too. I’m also a Catholic—not really particularly religious, but I am culturally Roman Catholic because I was born in Rome. I’m very curious to talk [about the film] to my friends who do go to church because I want to know what they think. I do think that they will be touched. The whole purpose of religion is to deal with doubt, and the film is an ode to doubt. We have to say we don’t have all the answers.
Ulman: Yes. I loved that part of the film where Cardinal Lawrence (Ralph Fiennes) talks about doubt: “If there was only certainty and no doubt, there would be no mystery and therefore no need for faith.”
Rossellini: That speech is marvelous. It’s very humbling because we have to recognize that we are human and therefore not perfect. We have to always remind ourselves of that.
Ulman: Conclave was shot in Italy. How was it to go back to your home country?
Rossellini: I go all the time because I still have some family there, but I never did a film in Rome. Maybe at some point I did a series, or some episodes or some scenes, but never a full film. So, it was fun to be back home.
Ulman: Was Catholicism a big part of your upbringing?
Rossellini: I grew up in Italy and France but went to an Italian school in Paris. My family was not particularly religious, although my grandmother went to church every Sunday. My aunt would tell me how much she loved Catholic philosophy. So, it wasn’t really so much about being fearful of God but more about the ideas that are present in the film, like humbleness, pardon, redemption. I think that there is something very warm about that, although many of my Protestant friends say, “Oh, for you Catholics, it’s easy—you sin, you confess, and then it’s over”—you know?
Ulman: Yes, absolutely. Catholics have historically preferred dogs over cats. Are you a dog or a cat person?
Rossellini: I’m more of a dog person. But I’m an ethologist—I have a master’s degree in ethology—so I’m interested in all animals. I’m interested in [ethology] in the way some people who are interested in science fiction ask themselves, “Are there other lives out here? Are they having emotions like us?” I think the Martians are right here next to us—the animals around us. Are they similar, are they different? And how so? That is a question that I’ve had since I was a little girl.
I’ve had cats before, but now I don’t because they are the reason there’s a big decline in wild birds. The cat I used to have would take home two or three birds a year, which doesn’t sound like much—but if you have millions of cats, which we do, and each is taking one or two birds a year, that is billions of wild birds that are dead. That’s why they recommend keeping cats indoors, which is really hard here because everything is open. So, when my cat died, I decided not to have one anymore. Otherwise, it’d need to wear a bell, and that would drive me crazy.
Ulman: Oh, and it drives them crazy, too.
Rossellini: Yes. So, the bell doesn’t work, and declawing and all these things seem cruel.
Ulman: Let’s not bring up declawing. I get very emotional about declawing. I’m a cat person. I only started dealing with dogs last year.
Rossellini: I’d be interested to know, from a scientific standpoint, what makes a human a cat or dog person. When I went to the university, we only studied elephants, lions, very exotic animals—not many domestic animals. So, when I started the farm, I was delighted to be able to access animals that I can have, and I was wondering if they were like dogs. But they’re not. They’re more like cats, they’re more detached. Dogs had a process of domestication, which is the longest of all animals. It is calculated at 30,000 to 50,000 years ago, while the rest of the animals were domesticated with the advent of agriculture, about 8,000 to 10,000 years ago. There are certain animals, like the cat, that are domesticated, yes, but they live alongside us. I think they allowed cats to live next to the human dwellings because the cats killed the mice. So, they changed us, and we probably changed them because they became less afraid of us, less aggressive.
But they haven’t had a process of domestication as hard as dogs. There were wolves that came, ate the bones [of their prey] and ate the excrement because they are scavengers. We let them do that as long as they didn’t eat us, and then, little by little, got to where we are today. There is something about dogs that is very similar to us—their family structure, the fact that they bark when there’s a threat. They also hunt in groups. I think the first domestication occurred because we were hunting with them. I have seen that with dolphins—dolphins working with fishermen. They know that the fishermen are able to catch more fish than they can, so they push the fish into a cove to help fishermen in exchange for some of the catch. Dolphins live in the ocean, otherwise they would be a very good candidate to be domesticated.
I think the first process of domestication was not really controlled by humans, it was more about animals willingly working alongside us. Maybe in the second wave of domestication humans started selecting temperament, talents and looks. Cats, on the other hand, look pretty much the same besides colors.
Ulman: Well, some cultures have great esteem for cats, not because of their work ethic but because of their spirituality. Muslims prefer cats over dogs, and in Islam they are considered ritually clean and to possess blessings. For example, if a cat chooses to live in your household, it becomes a source of pride because it shows that it is a calm and happy environment.
Since you mentioned dolphins, are you familiar with Karen Pryor and her clicker training technique? I read that she started doing clicker training on dolphins first.
Rossellini: Yes, she did. She works in zoos, and they all adopted that method. I volunteer for the Guide Dog Foundation, and her technique has been adopted by them. Now they can train dogs much faster. What took seven months before now takes two to three months.
Ulman: I’m currently training a puppy for the first time in my life. Tell me about the work you do with the Guide Dog Foundation. I’m very curious about it—training a pup is hard!
Rossellini: Yeah, I’ve volunteered for the Guide Dog Foundation for over 20 years. There are three ways of volunteering, and I’ve done the three. You can take dogs when they are puppies, eight weeks, keep them for a year, and really train them how you’d train your dog to be a good dog.
There are a few things that you don’t do with them that you do with a regular dog. You don’t throw balls because you don’t want to stimulate them if they have any instinct to chase. But you can hide things for them to find, which they love. You hide the ball because that can translate later on for a person that can’t see, [as] “find my gloves, find my keys.” And you can’t sleep with them on the bed because that is for the blind person to decide if they want to do that or not. Now that I’m old, it’s hard for me to walk these dogs because puppies pull. How big is your puppy?
Ulman: Big. He’s a mixed breed of German shepherd, Great Dane and cattle dog. He’s strong.
Rossellini: I had a very bad back operation, and one day I fell on the floor because a puppy pulled me so hard. So, I can’t volunteer that way anymore, but now they send me mama dogs that are pregnant. They have puppies at my house, and I keep them there until they’re six weeks, then the mama and puppies are returned to the Guide Dog Foundation. They are vaccinated, stay there for a few weeks, then they distribute them to people who volunteer the way I used to.
Talking about Roman Catholics: two years ago, the Guide Dog Foundation called me on Christmas Day and said, “We have a breeder dog, a female that doesn’t have a home, and we’re looking for a place for her to stay permanently.” I never committed to having a dog because I travel often, but they called me on Christmas and I said, “OK, I’m Roman Catholic. Do you know the story of the Madonna? How do you want me to say no?” Of course, I had to say yes. Rosie has been with me for two years, and she had two litters. She’s still at my house, now babysitting my grandson.
Ulman: When did this interest in animals begin? Was there an animal that kickstarted this passion, that opened the gates to a deeper understanding with other species? AKA: Who was your Holga? (Holga was the first animal that unleashed my interest in the animal world. Everyone who is interested in animal cognition seems to have been introduced to it through a relationship with a particular pet.)
Rossellini: We had a lot of animals at home. Dogs and cats, mostly, but hamsters, canaries, the birds, the animals that generally you have. But it wasn’t until I met Nando that I fell in love with animals. I had a cousin who had a little dachshund, Nando. My cousin was older than me, and he was traveling to Paris, so he brought the dog to our home so we would take care of him. But when he came back, I said that I was going to run away from home, that I was going to jump out the window if they took that dog away from me. My mom understood that I was very serious and told my cousin that he needed to get another dog because otherwise I was going to run away from home with Nando. So, that dog became my first dog. Nando and I had a bond. I was about five years old and took him for walks, fed him, took care of him from day one. He lived for 20 years, so he died when I was 25 years old. A very, very lovely little doggy.
Ulman: Has an animal ever surprised you?
Rossellini: My professor, Diana Reiss, was training dolphins to study their behavior. She would ask the dolphin to “get the ball,” the dolphin would get it, then she would give him a fish as a reward. But she didn’t want the dolphin to become too fat, so she cut the fish in pieces: one piece was the head, another piece was the tail and two or three pieces were the body. The dolphin didn’t like the tail, so she discarded it. So, they would repeat the process: “Get me the frisbee.” The dolphin would get it and then get a reward. But when the dolphin made a mistake, she would disengage and ignore the dolphin. These are social animals, so disengaging is kind of punishment. If she said, “Get the frisbee” and instead she got the ball, she would turn her back to the dolphin before playing again. But once, by mistake, she paid the dolphin with a fish tail, making the frustrated dolphin turn its back and disengage. This was mind-boggling to her. Once animals take the initiative and do something that you haven’t taught them, but they’ve seen it happen, that’s language, that’s communication! I remember how fantastic it was, that moment.
Ulman: Yeah, there’s a photo that I really like from two years ago somewhere in Japan. Because of budget cuts, they were buying cheaper fish, and the penguins were refusing to eat them. The photo is of the penguin turning its head, giving the handler the cold shoulder.
Rossellini: (laughs)
Ulman: One of my reasons for wanting to meet you is because I’ve been wanting to take the Animal Behavior and Conservation Masters at Hunter [College], and you are an alumn[a] from that program. But when I was reading about your work, I saw that you got the degree in 2019, after making Green Porno.
Rossellini: Right. Because I was always interested in animal behavior. To me, Green Porno is a work in progress. The first one, which I made before studying the M.A., was very successful, because sex is successful. But, for example, I couldn’t have done Mammas if I hadn’t gone to university. Firstly, because it’s based on a recent study by women scientists, and it is great that more women are now scientists because they ask questions like, “What is maternal instinct?” We all think we know it, but then when we have to define it scientifically, we don’t exactly know what it is. I think any of these series, even Seduce Me, I would have done maybe differently now, emphasizing more what Darwin called the “secondary sexual characteristic”: the horns, the collar, you know? But what brought me back to university, or making these films, was that I wasn’t working. I was old, so I didn’t have work as a model or as an actress. It was then that I attended a conference of Temple Grandin at Hunter, and they were handing out a pamphlet saying that they just opened this new Master’s program on animal behavior. I signed up that evening. Three days later, I was in class.
Ulman: Their marketing really worked! I was gonna say I like all of the series, but I really like, in Seduce Me, when you go, like, “What am I, a bed bug?” or “What am I, a duck?” Green Porno originated as a series of short videos for the Sundance YouTube Channel in 2008. How did it come about?
Rossellini: [Sundance founder] Robert Redford was enthusiastic about YouTube. He’s a big film buff; he loves silent films, and a lot of silent films are short. So, he allocated some money to do short films, especially if the subject was environmental. I’m an environmentalist, so they approached me. I had never directed anything, but then I had a little lightbulb moment and thought: “What if I was a fly… and then transformed myself into the fly?”
Ulman: You mentioned silent cinema. Any favorites?
Rossellini: Méliès for sure. I didn’t know what to do, so I looked at Méliès for inspiration and noticed his camera didn’t move. I liked that simplicity. Also, no special effects. I just didn’t want to do anything that I didn’t know how to do myself. The few times that I’ve delegated things to other people, somehow things go wrong. They don’t have the same flavor. For example, for one episode, we needed a drawing of a school of fish. I drew some, but we hired someone who drew better, more professionally. But the problem is that she colored each fish a different color, and that’s a school of fish who should look all somewhat similar. And just like that, my budget was gone, and the fish were [scientifically] wrong. But I’m very lucky to be working closely with Rick Gilbert and Andy Bright, who were my first art directors and execute my ideas in a truthful way.
Ulman: I love the way you use paper for the costumes and the set design. And I love your drawings! I have your chicken book, and the drawings are very good, very lively. To end our conversation, what changes would you like to see in the world right now with regards to how people engage with animals? Could we coexist better with other species?
Rossellini: It’s hard for me to give an answer that is very global, but it’s easy for me to give an answer that is small. It’s almost like doing Green Porno. So even if the farm is small, I would hope that this little Garden of Eden will be infectious and other people will do it instead of building a pool or a golf course. I operate in very, very small steps that I understand. My next step now involves wool. Like vegetables, wool is also a monoculture. Merino is a breed of sheep that is very soft, so it’s not itchy, so the Merino sheep became very popular.
I am now operating with a group called the Hudson Valley Textile Project, and at Mama Farm we have four, soon five, breeds of sheep. I only buy heritage breeds, meaning breeds that are endangered. So, for example, I have a sheep called Jacob that has two horns. Sometimes they have four horns. This breed is so old that it is described in the Bible.
Ulman: I read that you are doing something similar with the chickens, that since the chickens that are used for eggs are often the same breed, here you try to have heritage breeds to prevent them from going extinct.
Rossellini: Yes, I have 22 different breeds of chicken, all heritage breeds, and I have the sheep, and I have goats.
Ulman: We should go see them!
We went for a stroll to see the animals that currently live in Mama Farm, and I couldn’t help but notice two little sheep who followed Isabella everywhere. This dynamic duo, called Toto and Titi, were particularly charismatic and significantly more friendly than all the other animals. We even took some selfies with Toto! They were so at ease because Isabella has been training them to be in front of the camera next year for a new Green Porno series.
Ulman: So, Toto and Titi will star in the new Green Porno series about domestication?
Rossellini: Yes, about how we changed their coat, how we eliminated their horns, how we made chicken, who in the wild lay ten eggs per year, now lay 300. It would be possible for a mama to raise 300 chicks! So, you know, I would like to make it about that and film it right here on the farm. I would be a primitive woman, an old, primitive woman, and make my breasts look like this, very saggy. I’m always naked in these series.
Ulman: Yeah, I always loved the faux nudity in the Green Porno series. This new project about domestication sounds really good. I’m excited to see Toto’s break as a star!
