In Jeremy Saulnier’s breakthrough films Blue Ruin and Green Room, the writer-director thrust protagonists into violent cacophonies they weren’t equipped to navigate. With his new Netflix actioner Rebel Ridge, Saulnier centers his story on a hero much more adept at meeting force with force.

The film stars Aaron Pierre as a Marine hand-to-hand combat expert who comes to a small southern town to bail out his cousin. Before he can do so, his bail money is confiscated by the corrupt, militarized local police force (led by chief Don Johnson) via a bogus civil asset forfeiture claim. Confrontations—both verbal and physical—ensue.

Rebel Ridge had a difficult path to completion. The original start date of April 2020 was scrapped shortly before production began by COVID shutdowns. The following spring, with a month of filming already completed, lead actor John Boyega dropped out. The third time was the charm for Saulnier and his crew as the movie finally made it into the can in 2022 during a blistering hot summer shoot centered in Leesville, Louisiana.

With Rebel Ridge hitting Netflix over the weekend, Saulnier spoke to Filmmaker about finally getting his movie in front of audiences.

Filmmaker: I was reading through some of your Blue Ruin-era interviews, and you said in one of them, “Every movie I make, my favorite joke never gets a laugh.” Rebel Ridge is a fairly serious story, but did that hold true?

Saulnier: I actually broke my streak. There is a moment in the movie with Summer [the court clerk character who helps out Pierre’s Terry] in her kitchen, which at its core is a very intimate scene…

Filmmaker: …the snowblower joke that Terry delivers after Summer gives her monologue about her past?

Saulnier: Yes. For all the Murder Party fans out there, I was able to insert a pun joke. I actually had it written in the script that Terry was thinking of a joke during that scene, but I never wrote [that specific pun] into the script. I thought it was just too much. We did something I rarely do, which is we played the scene and ran the dialogue and then at a certain point, I whispered to Aaron, “This is the joke you were thinking of. For this take, try it.” I liked it and put it in the movie, but I never knew [if it was going to work]. Then in our first test screening the entire room erupted. I think because of the gravity of the whole movie and the context, one little pun joke went a long way. So, in this one my favorite joke actually [got a laugh] and that was very gratifying.

Filmmaker: I love the specificity of that detail, that this character’s life was derailed because something she stole had a snowblower attachment that bumped the dollar amount up to a felony. Where did that detail come from?

Saulnier: I think just from tons of research. Her history is somewhat tragic, and I liked adding a little levity to it with that technical detail. I don’t know exactly where I gleaned that information from, but I loved employing it because in most bigger studio films that I see, efficiency and comprehension are all they care about. It is fun to get nerdy and detailed—that adds so much life to it, so much humanity. I love minutiae. Blue Ruin is an action movie, but most of it is what would normally be left out of [that genre] and left on the cutting room floor. If movies normally cut from A to C, then I want to see B, even if it takes a long time to get there. Rebel Ridge was sort of an extension of that. We are trying to keep it high stakes with the tension mounting, but I always allow myself to get distracted by what I come across.

Filmmaker: My favorite part of the film, even more than the action, is the verbal sparring between Pierre and Don Johnson. I love the line when they’re facing off in front of the police station and Johnson, to communicate that he’s not willing to compromise, tosses off “You could offer me eternal life or a catfish sandwich.”

Saulnier: Yeah, I’m from Virginia, so I can speak a little shitkicker. (laughs) That’s just me recalling these things that I’ve heard in my youth. That acronyms scene between them and the whole concept of PACE, that was again allowing myself to [divert due to my] research. I’m not even sure how I came across that, but when I did, I was like, “Holy shit, this is now a setpiece scene.” There was always going to be that confrontation, but the way it was framed changed when I found that nugget of information about the methodology of planning in military situations and just milked that. I love that scene, and the actors really brought it home. This film is very dense. It’s very designed, but when it’s Aaron Pierre and Don Johnson just talking for five plus minutes outside that police station, it is a single setup per actor. Then, when Aaron steps closer to Don, all of a sudden now we have two meaty close-ups. It was really fun to step back as a director and just watch them work.

Filmmaker: When Aaron steps into that close-up on his side of the coverage, you just tilt up to adjust the frame. For Don’s side of that, did you do a little push in because it looked like the camera gets physically closer to him?

Saulnier: Yeah, on Don’s side we made up the distance [with a push-in]. For those types of scenes, we’re always on sliders just in case actors, on a whim, decide to move. You cannot stop that electricity and be like, “Hey, you’re two inches off your mark.” You’ve got to be able to boogie.

Filmmaker: Was the plan always to do that exchange in basically three shots? You start with a tracking move to get Don over to Aaron from the police station, then there’s just the two overs. Or did you adjust the coverage when you saw that electricity you described between them?

Saulnier: It was always designed to be a Technocrane move to get Don in a profile out of the station and then kind of hinge with him and become a wider over the shoulder with Terry. And it’s not just about, you know, “Let’s have fun with Technocranes.” It’s about the continuity of the shot, how it evolves and only cutting when we want to. It’s a very elegant, simple move, but not easy to get either. For the rest of the scene when they’ve settled in [to their positions], I was actually inspired by a scene in [Saulnier’s previous Netflix film] Hold the Dark with Julian Black Antelope and James Badge Dale in a doorway. For that scene, we were able to do two cameras [at once], but I was inspired by the simplicity of, one setup per actor and let them talk. It felt so much like a Western to me—two guys talking before a very big event, and you could just feel the tension in the air. There might as well be tumbleweeds rolling in the background. It’s a seven-page scene [that corresponds to], I think, about five minutes in the movie. We did have three cameras rolling, but once they lock into their over the shoulders, I had no intention of ever cutting out until shit hits the fan. That’s not typical to cover a scene that way, but, to their credit, I got full support from the studio. While it’s a creative decision first and foremost, it’s also about efficiency. On Rebel Ridge, it was a big deal to get five pages shot in a day. Sometimes you can spend half a day on a shot and get into a quagmire with the technical nature of [filmmaking]. 

Filmmaker: With a two-hander scene like that, how do you choose which actor to shoot first?

Saulnier: I defer to the actors. Usually, it’s whoever has the heavy lifting verbally. In this case, I deferred to Aaron. That scene is sort of equal as far as dialogue and screen time, but it is Aaron’s big moment where he has to transform and come into his own and the chief has to shrink down a bit. When I work with actors I usually like to first get their input, but sometimes [the order is dictated] by my observations. Sometimes you have an actor who’s hot when they come on and you know take one or two will be good. Other actors may need to work up to a certain level. With the type of dialogue in that scene—and when you are doing sparse coverage—you need some time to get into the rhythm. I think we did between five and eight takes on both sides. You also do that just for variation. Once you have it and you’re safe, then you can play.

Filmmaker: What kind of notes do you give? Say you’ve got your safety take and now you’re playing. What do you tell Don Johnson?

Saulnier: Well, Don and I have a rapport, and he knows all my notes are like “Quieter. I want to feel the stillness.” He’ll always do that for me, then he’ll show me new things and I always end up using a hybrid [in the edit]. With Aaron, it’s a different dynamic. He came knowing the role and being a guardian of that role. He knew my aesthetic and my filmography, and we did not want to make a cornball action movie. With the words that Aaron’s given and the circumstances he has to carry out on screen, other actors might give in to that [action movie cliche] of whipping around over their shoulder and giving the camera a look. You know, being aware [in the performance] that he is an action star. He was very protective [of not going that route]. So, he would go hyper subtle—really quiet and dialed in. I would sometimes say things before a take like, “Let’s do some breathing in this one. Let’s see how your body can be in the background adding to the scene.” I even get involved with miking them. Intimate lavalier mics, when I can hear the actor’s breathe, will make the hair on the back of my neck stand up. It’s almost like you are witness to the internal mechanisms of their fight or flight responses. It’s really, really engaging. So, yeah, we get granular, but with actors like this, I can also literally just say, “Let’s try one a little quieter.” Then I have fun in the edit, and I can really pick and choose and play off the other actors and make sure that there’s a good back and forth so that the comprehension of the scene, both verbally and emotionally, is fully realized.

Filmmaker: Let’s get into the editing. You came up working as a DP and shot your first two features [Murder Party and Blue Ruin] yourself, but Rebel Ridge is the first film you’ve edited.

Saulnier: Julia Bloch [who cut Saulnier’s last three films] and I have a great relationship and she’s an amazing editor. She was very supportive of me giving it a go on this one. I just wanted to see if I could see it all the way through as a filmmaker. This shoot was rough with the heat and the schedule. Louisiana in June and July was no joke. We had days with a 128-degree heat index. It was a rough one, but when you’re in an edit room—I edited the film above my garage in this beautiful Avid suite that I’m actually talking to you from now—I can be alone. Of course, there’s tons of support remotely from the post team, editorial assistants and additional editors helping out with the assemblies and preview cuts, but there are these moments when you’re editing where you mathematically find the right combination of takes and it ends up being a better match than your number one circle takes from production. You finally find that alchemy and crack the code. It’s so satisfying not just creatively, but it also satisfies the mathematical side of your brain, the Tetris of it all and the problem solving. It was very cathartic to go through it in that way. Would I do it again? Who knows. It took me a while; I will say that. I am hyper meticulous. But I stand by every single frame, every single choice. It’s the first time in my career where I’m like, “I’m done. I’m happy. It is what it is, and it can go live its life.”

Filmmaker: In another interview from the Blue Ruin days, you talked about how difficult you found it to shoot and direct simultaneously. You said it was hard to focus on framing and operating the camera while also critically watching the performances. Now that you’ve got 10 more years of work as a director under your belt, would you ever shoot one of your movies again?

Saulnier: I don’t know. I’m open to it at some point, but it would have to be a smaller scale production where it’s just beneficial financially. With Blue Ruin, the whole point was like, “I’m wearing so many hats because then I don’t have to pay anybody [to do those jobs].” With something like Rebel Ridge, it’s a bigger  studio film. There was a three-camera velocity behind it and in order to protect myself from getting carried away or getting distracted by toys, I hired a true artist in David Gallego, who came in from Colombia to shoot the film. His filmography is just staggeringly gorgeous. He’s capable of these really composed frames but with hyper naturalistic lighting. He has a very artful visual style and that’s what I wanted. I knew we could go big and blow shit up and have fun on this movie, but I wanted the lighting to be very naturalistic. David was a very easy partner and a wonderful guy. If I can keep hooking up with collaborators like David Gallego, then I don’t see myself ever getting back behind the camera in that regard.

Filmmaker: With your background, how much of a role do you play in the process of selecting the camera and lens package? I believe you ultimately went with the Alexa LF and Cooke Full Frame anamorphics for Rebel Ridge.

Saulnier: I love testing, but there’s a limited amount of camera systems out there to test, so it’s all about the lenses for me. I tend to gravitate towards the Alexa because of their color science and how things sit on that sensor. It seems very filmic. I know there’s constant evolution every year, but it gets to be almost overwhelming. I always allow for [my mind to be changed]. If I’m proven wrong and we see these gorgeous tests, then I will go that route, but always in collaboration with the cinematographer. I do think there’s visual continuity from Green Room to Hold the Dark to Rebel Ridge [all of which were shot by different DPs], but there’s always subtle changes and I defer to the DP in that regard. It’s also important to talk to the post team about the show LUT and how that can enhance the inherent beautiful flaws of the lens system or how the light refracts, and how you can nurture that or compensate for it in your show LUT. 

Filmmaker: Your last four features have been 2.39, but the first two were spherical and your two most recent were anamorphic. How do you decide which stories require which type of lenses?

Saulnier: Hold the Dark, I think, just demanded anamorphic. It’s these big, beautiful Alaskan landscapes, though we shot in Alberta, Canada. It adds so much scope and weight to the narrative. We actually tested the Alexa 65 for Hold the Dark, but we were on a limited budget and the data management [of shooting with the large format] would have added six figures plus to the budget. We had a 4K mandate and the [original Alexa] had a native 3.2K sensor, so we went with a Red for Hold the Dark. We actually talked about doing spherical for Rebel Ridge. There’s not a ton of expansive landscapes, but with the intimate closeups we wanted to harken back to Eastwood Westerns and in the end that just felt like anamorphic.

Filmmaker: There’s a oner in Rebel Ridge where Terry comes out the back exit of the clerk’s office and Summer comes out to meet him. They duck into an alley for this beautifully silhouetted two shot. Then Terry comes out of the alley at the end of the shot just as a train passes behind by him the distance. How did you time that shot?

Saulnier: Well, on behalf of the visual effects department, I’ll take that as a compliment.

Filmmaker: Yeah, I wouldn’t have guessed it was a visual effect.

Saulnier: Chris Connolly is my visual effects supervisor. He is a friend from college. He gets storytelling and knows me like no other crew member. The trains would come into town very often and were not great for sound. We lost a few takes of dialogue when we were shooting in the courthouse, but it’s true to the nature of the environment. It’s true to Louisiana. The rail lines are everywhere, so we just embraced it. Now, the scene you’re talking about, I choreographed that years ago, in 2021 during prep with my team. We had to build certain parts, like little ramps on this and that, so it all could be a single take. Thank you for noticing that shot, because it’s not like a spectacular oner. It’s something that just keeps the continuity and flow and urgency and balances out the over-the-shoulder coverage that we do plenty of in the movie. I just needed a break filmically and as an audience member too, so we worked with the actors, dialed up the pacing so it could keep the attention and choreographed it. The train tracks were right there and there were trains coming while we were shooting. One of them actually blew, I think, take four. The train horn just destroyed the dialogue, but when it passed through I was like, “Holy shit, that’s perfect.” So, at the end of our favorite take we just sat there for an extra six minutes and held the Steadicam there right where it was and let a real train come through. Chris Connolly and his visual effects team ended up using that as a plate for reference. They did a 3D version of the train but used that plate to map out all those hard front lit sunspots and shadows. Normally you wouldn’t shoot a plate with shitty front light on a train, but we used [those imperfections] to give it a veracity.

*****Spoiler*******

Filmmaker: Let’s finish up by circling back to where we started—unexpected humor. The name of the movie is Rebel Ridge. You set it up that the film’s final confrontation is going to be at this place, Rebel Ridge. You have this push in shot on a sign that says Rebel Ridge with the location surround by this militarized police force…and then nothing ends up happening at Rebel Ridge. That made me laugh.

Saulnier: [Laughs] Yes, there’s some fun misdirection there. It’s not supposed to be a prank on the audience, but it was like, “How do we shift this so expectations can be subverted” and that was a fun way to do it. It sounded like a good title. It makes for a good poster, so why not lean into that and have some fun? But, yeah, it’s definitely supposed to be a “What the fuck?” moment.